Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby SkylineCoach » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:18 pm

Thanks, Dave. I was one of those kids in school who believed the teachers when they said "If you have a question, speak up, because others are probably thinking the same thing" :lol:

I do kind of wish we could hear from El Dorado HillsTrojans B13A, Grizzlies B13A, Novato B13A, South Bay Crusaders B13A and West Valley Red Hawks B13A.

In 15A, its even more interesting than losing 3 teams - there are actually 8 who dropped out (Skyline Red B15A, Elk Grove Gladiators B15A, El Dorado Hills Trojans B15A, S. Marin Wolfpack B15A, Chiefs B15A, Tomahawks B15A, West Valley Red Hawks B15A) but also 4 who moved up.

Props to not only Town & Stuart Hall for getting back into 15A (perhaps Clubs can be trusted to assess their own talent after all? :wink: ) but also to Livermore & Monterey for trying it out. I haven't seen Livermore play, but I've been to plenty of Box down at Silver Creek and the boys from the Tribe definitely work together well.
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby picknroll » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:51 pm

SkylineCoach wrote:Pick, I see your point, but you've still got to look at the numbers. A club with 42 players in U13, who fields an A, has declared to the world that 50% of their players are superlative.

A club with even just 60 - let alone 80 or 100 - still only selects 20 players for A. 33%, 25%, 20% or less... which leaves a lot of GREAT players "playing down" on B.

Can you really say that Skyline or Town or Southern Marin is so blessed with heart, coaching, desire, and the lucky gene pool club, that 50% of their players are elite, when kids in Danville, Pleasanton, San Carlos, Ross, etc are only blessed with a much lower percentage of superior players?

That kind of argument is offensive to BOTH sides of this discussion.

I'm telling the truth - Skyline has some A level players who will be playing B this year. But I also know that any club with 100 kids in U13, following similar percentages, has at least 24 and maybe up to 30 A-level kids, while they'll only carry an A team of 20. So between 4 and 10 A level kids will be playing B EVERYWHERE. If you look at the 50%, you could see up to 30 kids playing B on a big club, who would have made A in a club the size of ours.

Credit where credit is due: Ross Valley. They run with about 3 teams per age group, about the minimum to field A. And they do well. They started when the kids were small - U9, U11 - taking lumps and working towards the future.

Skyline should have done the same thing. But we put resources (fields, coaches) into older kids' teams, and the kids (and their parents) just didn't have the same goals in mind. They were at a point where they wanted their kids to be competitive and feel inspired, so they'd play High School ball. And we failed a lot of them. We even asked our HS coaches what they wanted - A, they said, heavy competition, learn rather than win - but we kept losing kids anyway. Losing kids from the sport is unsustainable. And that sucks.

I think the NCJLA's 2011 requirement that 1/3 of teams be A in any club's age group is a good start. It may need adjustment, but maybe not. Many clubs simply don't have the resources (coaches, fields, etc.) to expand beyond 2 teams per age group. Nothing any rules & regs can do about that. It also all becomes self-adjusting, given enough time. We loved it when Alameda started up, despite losing players to them, because it took the pressure off our numbers. San Ramon Raptors would have never started up if Diablo and Pleasanton were perfect for everyone. Central Marin exists because Novato, Ross, and So. Marin were at operating capacity. Sometimes people forget that there's a lot of infill growth still in the NCJLA - its not all suburban and Valley startups.

And all that adds up to more opponents at the logical "B" level.

A is truly not for everyone. C is for beginners. B is youth sports - plain & simple. Everyone's default division, what we all played when we were kids. Some B teams will have 2 great players, others will have 14. Most will have 6 or 8 or 10. That's how it should be.


Saturday's Results

Skyline U15B over Pleasanton U15B 10-4
Skyline U13B over Pleasanton U13B 12-5
Skyline U11B over Pleasanton U11B 10-1

I believe that the law of unintended consequences says that each solution creates another problem. What about the boys on these Pleasanton B teams who had to play Skyline's top players?
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby SkylineCoach » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:20 pm

Cute. "Gotcha" on the internet.

If you look at my post directly above yours, you'll see there are a whole bunch more clubs just like Skyline - but who haven't participated in the discussion at all. But here you are, coming after the only guy who spoke up.

Relax, dude. We've got A teams on the schedule too. Our other 11B team lost (you didn't bother to post that score), as did our 13C. Next week you can post all the Skyline losses.
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby picknroll » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:54 pm

The point is that we keep vacillating around the same problem. First too many clubs move to "A" and many feel that that they are uncompetitive in "A" and move back to "B". That puts the top teams of a club competing against true "B' teams in other clubs, which creates the same disadvantage in reverse. The goal should be to get scheduling of teams with similar skill sets to make the games as competitive as possible for development purposes. We have now grown big enough that there should be enough teams to solve the problem, but we don't seem to be converging on a solution. Perhaps there should be an "AA" division for the top teams from large clubs and an "A" division for the top teams from smaller clubs. The "B" league should be left for "B" teams, sort of like JV in high school. My opinion of course.
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby SkylineCoach » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:36 pm

I agree with you on that. As unpopular as it would be to suggest, I think that the only real solution is to limit overall size of clubs. No High School can field 4 teams (assuming they max out at Frosh-Soph, JV, V), although DLS and SI probably have the players to field them if they could.

Where the NCJLA went this year with the "3 teams in an age group = 1 A team" would really have to be altered to 3 teams in an age group is the max, after that the club is full (at that age group) and kids have to move on to another club. I'd put 50% of my kids against 33% of another club's without hesitation.

This is taking care of itself to some extent - San Ramon, Central Marin, Menlo-Atherton, Alameda for example. It also allows for different coaching philosophies and styles to emerge, and reduces travel, both of which are very good for the sport. But as long as the super-size clubs persist, their A's will always be the tip of a pyramid with a very large base.

I don't have anything against the large clubs at all. They've done more to grow the sport's popularity in their communities than any of the rest of us, and their High Schools are reaping the rewards. But if the NCJLA really wants to foster balanced competition, the 'free market' must be matched with some structural changes..
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby chmdave » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:15 am

Skyline...

With all respect...this is not a Diablo problem...

For all the good work that Phil has done to grow the organization and for the hard work of good coaches like Todd and Rob and Dave...they haven't won gold at any level in three seasons...we're not exactly talking about the 1927 Yankees here...

Marc Cranney is the well deserved favorite to repeat with Pleasanton at U13...I don't hear any calls to break up the Green Menace of Bishop Ranch...

This is not personal to you or your club but you've emerged in this forum as the voice of clubs that drop down...

One of the reasons you cited in an earlier post is that your A teams were losing AND getting physically beaten up...

Ok...so now you've dropped down and the SMACKEE has become the SMACKER...

I guess your parents are happier but it's very difficult to see A talent slap around B talent when you could collectively be in the A group...Instead you and these other 8-10 clubs are content to slap around weaker kids...it just isn't right...
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby SkylineCoach » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:20 pm

So since I'm the lone voice in the wilderness, its ok to smack me around? Come on Dave.

Where's your U15A team this year?
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby picknroll » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:22 pm

Acutally I kind of like the thinking ... analyzing the % of players and such. That's hard data.

Think about this. Assume Club A fields three U13A teams and Club B fields two U13A teams. Each team contains 20 players. In all other respects other than size the two clubs are equal - skills, coaching, parental support, etc.

Now take all of the players of each club and assign them a numerical rating of 1 through 10, evenly distributed. Club A will have six of each rating and Club B will have four of each rating.

Based on that type of distribution the top team (assuming 20 players) of each club will look like this:

Club A: six 10's, six 9's, six 8's, two 7's
Club B : four 10's, four 9's, four 8's, four 7's, four 6's, four 5's

So when you put ten starters on the field the match ups look like this:

- The top four guys are even on each side.
- Club A has two 10's matched up against two 9's.
- The next two guys are even (both 9's)
- Club A has two 9's match up against two 8's

So Club A has a slight advantage on 4 of the 10 positions on the field and six are equal. In that situation you would expect the game to be relatively competitive while the starters are on the field with an advantage to Club A. As the game progressed and the bench becomes a factor, Club A should widen it's superiority and win the game.

If all other things are equal, Club A should win the game purely on numbers. They should have more talent. Of course all things are not equal so Club B could win the game through superior coaching, conditioning, etc.

Now let's drop Club B down to play in the "B" division and play against Club A's second team. Here's what the lineups look like in terms of player ratings.

Club A: four 7's, six 6's, six 5's, four 4's
Club B : four 10's, four 9's, four 8's, four 7's, four 6's, four 5's

Now here are the matchups for the starting lineup:

Club B sends out four 10's matched up against four 7's for Club A.
Club B sends out four 9's matched up against four 6's for Club A.
Club B sends out two 8's matched up against two 6's for Club A.

Now Club B outmatches Club A in all ten starting positions - by a wide margin. The expected outcome of such a game would not only be a victory by Club B, but a blowout.

That's what I mean by the solution creating a problem. Club A has advantage over Club B (by numbers) in the top teams for sure, but playing Club B's top team against Club A's middle team creates an even bigger mismatch (purely by numbers).

I don't know why the NCJLA would want to even schedule this type of game. Why would the top team out of two be given the same classifcation as the second team out of three? This makes no sense to me. By my count there are 14 clubs that field two teams. The logical scheduling approach would be to schedule games between these 14 top teams (out of two). That would totally eliminate the numbers argument. There's plenty of teams for each club to play a similar club to themselves. Of course we have the silly playoff dilemna. I say you solve that by making only "A" champions and providing jamborees for everyone else. If you want to be competive, go play "A". Otherwise you get a jamboree.
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby SkylineCoach » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:43 pm

Pick, I appreciate your number-crunching.

I've tried to provide candid, open discussion - quality content for this forum - and all I get for my trouble is to be kicked around. I'm the only voice of the 'tweener' clubs, and whenever I ask a legitimate question - like back on 12/21 when I wrote:

I do kind of wish we could hear from El Dorado HillsTrojans B13A, Grizzlies B13A, Novato B13A, South Bay Crusaders B13A and West Valley Red Hawks B13A.

In 15A, its even more interesting than losing 3 teams - there are actually 8 who dropped out (Skyline Red B15A, Elk Grove Gladiators B15A, El Dorado Hills Trojans B15A, S. Marin Wolfpack B15A, Chiefs B15A, Tomahawks B15A, West Valley Red Hawks B15A) but also 4 who moved up.


it gets completely ignored.

So screw it - everyone go ahead and make me out to be the bad guy. Pile on, let me have it, prove me wrong 100 different ways. I can take it - its better than seeing my kids losing 17-1 every week and quitting the sport.
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Re: Teams competing in U13A and U15A in 2011

Postby lamo lax » Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:49 am

I find it funny how everyone bags on skyline and other clubs that are expanding and trying to play A. Does anyone else notice that that some established clubs (ala..Pleasanton and a few others) run up scores and punish clubs for trying to step up and field A teams. Maybe if some "power clubs" honoured the game and didn't try to humiliate whoever they play, we wouldn't be taking about this.....
I can understand 10 nothing, but 17 is just rude. Get a clue, and if these clubs really wanted to help grow the game, they wouldn't try to run up scores.
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